A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. That is where I focus when it comes to the existence of evil and suffering. Behaviorallyyes, I would concede that Jeff S and Jeff B are NOT hyper. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. If Ive erred here, please forgive me for speaking out of turn . God forbid. I may be wrong, but I think Enns is a Calvinist. Ive never spent much time self-identifying as a Calvinist. Hes what theologians call a simple Being. Not simple = not complex, but meaning that there is a Unity in whatever he does. In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. (for the record.). If I were there when a Calvinist or any other professing believer (or atheist or whatever) told someone who was suffering or grieving something that was sure to make the person feel worse, I can practically guarantee that I would shut that person up and have words with him/her. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. Now I have a place to send the Calvin debates and can keep the other threads relatively Calvin debate-free. How can man decry evil and embrace good when neither one really matters or means anything to God? You can find this sort of material by googling for it. They find it sustaining. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. I know it bothers you when you feel a belief is misrepresented. I dont see Calvinism as the issue, though I know some do. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. I honestly dont know.) Glad to have someone who gets my background! Was your family Christian? Many problems in churches and society should transcend doctrinal biases. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. Mark Driscoll, John Piper and Tim Keller megachurch preachers and important evangelical authors are all Calvinist. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. Finally, we must work together whenever possible. There are many bite marks on my tongue. But, nothey will say, you dont have to agree with me! There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. This website helped me tremendously as a recovering Piperite, and Im so grateful that I dont have to believe that God CAUSED this illness for some mysterious glory. Yes, God WILL receive glory somehow from it, but thats not his grand purpose. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. It is entirely congregationally driven, so the church votes on pastors, and votes on board members (elders), not the other way around. Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. It might not make people any more interested in Calvinism, but it just bothers me to see a doctrine rejected for the wrong reasons. The theology is weak. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. Would you want to answer that one? I think of it as humility and respecting my limitations, but I understand the line between humility and doublethink is quite thin. Nope, not a Cal. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. In spite of the fact that Sproul and Piper have said such things, i still consider them Christians. The WCF clearly states that God is not the author of sin. Because he did not adhere to the beliefs of his well-known pastor. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. Prayer Requests Anywaythats fine. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . Once we agree that all ideas have the exact same chance of being wrongwe have merely held the door open for ANOTHER, and even more sinister and vicious, arbiter of truth to be released: the power of the keys, which is nothing more than the power of DESTRUCTIONand with this, the powers that be continue to be the powers that be. They just want to give us a little more time and "context" to receive the brilliance. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . This is also (imo) true for many, many people. Much is mystery and humans so want to solve the mystery. We need well-rounded meals, small and frequent, in a quiet warm kitchen with loads of kindness. No. He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. It usually starts out with something like this. I get what youre saying. Now heres the thing, In Christ Alone is one of my favorite songs. I think you will see that there are real differences: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? I think you may have answered that in your post: I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. So I Must Be! as the indicator. People need to practice their voice till they can mature in how they use it. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? In this video, Jesse Morrell refutes the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. With no disrespect to the contributor who mentioned them in a recent thread here, knowing the four positions on divorce (if indeed one accepts there are four) cannot make me a good husband, any more than knowing the flashpoint and auto-ignition temperature of diesel makes me a better driver. The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. The person who said this will one day stand before God and have to explain why hepronouncedyou, a child of God who is now standing withthe throngs of heaven with a crown on your head, a non-Christian. LL.B (Hons) London, CLP. I had no intention of saying that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. I intended to contrast believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their reading of Scripture, and believers (Cal and non-Cal) who base their opinions on their own counsel, on what they *feel* is true. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. CALVIN!, The Bible? Weeps with you. However, Burk made the comment that the wrath of God was at the center of the Gospel, and later on a commentor stated that to not understand PSA is to believe a different Gospel. Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. But something has changed in the last number of years. c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. The promises are over the top. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. B. If Calvin hadnt written up on it, someone else may well have done subsequently. So thankful to be free, now. This is close to or maybe is fatalism, the idea that man has no free will. J. Vernon McGee 19. I could not. So Sad. The thread on JAs blog really threw me off kilter. It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Does it help that the Institutes that we have today began with a normal-sized book that Calvin added to over about a 24-year period, and was not the case of a mad obsessive locking himself in a room for a year or two? We are human, after all and I think all humans, from the beginning of time, have asked these questions, not just monotheists. The Bible? But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. TULIP was formed many years after Calvins death to counter five points made by followers of Arminius, though the concepts are in Calvins writings. Agree. How is that? But these things do not happen independently of God. I can see why many walk away . Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. @ dee: Wow. Ask a lot of questions. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? Its all up to God. HOWEVER- as is often the case, what we deal with in real life can be quite unlike what the experts say it is. Wade is one of the most loving pastors that we have ever had the joy to meet. Hes already won me to his side. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. If we do, we must hang our heads in shame. In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom Id like to agree with both, if thats ok. We need exactly the right kind of nutrition at exactly the right kind, but maybe not the milky kind because we emerge from trauma both far too old and still too young. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage. So, when some folksfinally get into a Calvinist church that teaches sound doctrine, they believe that they have found a system that has answers for many questions that had troubled them. Somehow He organizes His Will and human free will in accomplishing His ends. If you heard this preached, it might be from a Hyper-Calvinist church. I did not but I definitely got the immigrant part and am proud of m Russian heritage. This is why I tend to fall back to the WCF. Joel B. Glad to have someone who gets my background! Therefore, I wanted to keep the door open in this discussion. To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. Now I dont see either of those reflected in what I know of historic Calvinism (and both are directly addressed in the WCF), but if some people want to say they believe those things, then those people are in error for believing them because they are unbiblical, not because they are unCalvinistic. God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point.. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. In fact, I would have said that TWW was more anti-Calvinist than it was anti-Abuse. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Many of their sayings and actions cannot stand the test of time, the test of logic, and most important the test of loving your neighbour. (Keep in mind Sproul Jr.s insistence that God always acts according to his strongest desire.). This is what Calvinists need to come to terms with. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong. I used try but I have given up. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. Theres sort of a flip saying that goes get 10 Calvinists in a room and youll get 30 different opinions on what Calvinism is> Okay, that saying applies in many circumstances :). 9. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. Every kindness & every meanness I do sends ripples outward and I birth the future by my words and deeds. I will pray for him a lot in the coming days! And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. The simple interpretation of total depravity is this: because you are human (totally), you are perpetually and inexorably morally corrupt, and the only way you can understand any truth is if God functionally does it for you via the doctrine of arbitrary election. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Three of their principal concerns were believer's baptism, sectarian withdrawal from society, and religious liberty. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. A stupendously important point, Jeff. There are some who would consider me non charitable. By wrong, do you mean untrue? Reformed theology has other tenets, which Calvin influenced, along with other theologians like Augustine (354-430) and Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531). Ah, I didnt catch that. Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. I hadnt thought of it that way. This would definitely color their opinion. #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 And those who have been left behind when theyve fallen in between, On the altar of the simple road is the blood of the messy gray In some respects we all do that. Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. However, they are limited, just as we are. But it's hard to beat J. I. Packer in any theological camp. In fact, I recently wrote a song about it- some of the lyrics (this song could be titled ode to John Piper and his views on Divorce and Remarriage, but I did not quite go that far): So many people with big ideas who have it all figured out So perhaps it carries untruth? In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. . As Ive said, the idea that evil exists at all with an all powerful and good God troubles me, and I do not have an answer for it. I had Wade Burelson come to my little rinky-dink blog and debate me on my turf. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. As Ive said on older threads, back when I was considering becoming a Calvinist and began lurking at their forums and perusing their sites, and I began e mailing them asking them if they could explain Calvinism for me and clear up some confusion I had, this happened a lot. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. Learn more or donate today at crossway.org/about . But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see And those of us who see the logical cause and effect of Calvinism-to-abuse are against Calvinism because we dont WANT the powers that be to be the power any more. Horton made it clear that he did not agree with all of Olson's assertions. Im not saying you or TWW do that, but I have felt in the past that I was really not allowed to be a Calvinist in some commenters minds. This is merely a nice way of saying that God hasnt enlightened you to the truth. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? Have prayed for him, his family and physicians. Or to say it differently, I loosely hold to the idea that God is in control of every molecule. Ham- as a proof text for poor science. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. They cant seem to express their experience and pain without having a conversation with some authentic Calvinist/Reformer/Tulip believer (Whatever that means. An infant does not want, nor desire steak. Was your family Christian? @ Daisy: As a moderator at my blog, yes, Id shut it down and recommend that they take it to the Calvinism debate thread if they want to discuss it further. It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. If you define Calvinism that way, then I am certainly not a Calvinist, but neither is my church, the PCA, nor even was Calvin himself. And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? Calvin is a little deep to get through, not to mention that the language structure is about 500 years old and not written in English. In response to the devastation of a hurricane: @JohnPiper: Your sons and daughters were eating and a great wind struck the house, and it fell upon them, and they are dead.Job 1:19 Feels your pain with you. They probably have read other books about Calvin doctrines, but never the original. And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. ), The best treatment of this question Ive read is by John Piper, so Im not sure youd want to read it. Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? Does not compute. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. For example, the word total in Total Depravity is an absolutethere is no such rational idea as partly total, which is what some Calvinists want to say when they declare that humans are not as bad as they could beas if this matters in the dualistic Calvinist paradigm: God is Good, and youare not. He got into this thing about to truly let someone have free will, not only do you have to permit them to disobey / do evil, but there has to be an opportunity to do good, too. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. I just checked my Google News and there was an Associated Press story marking 20 years since Al Mohler took over SBTS. As you can imagine, though, I am still reeling from the Aug. 4 diagnosis. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. If I did that, I would lose the single greatest tool I have for refining my ideas: discussion, debate, disagreement (three ds). Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. My experience has been that someone who adheres to Calvinism always shows up on a blog to defend it/him when they happen upon someone they feel is misrepresenting him/it. But something has changed in the last number of years. Plus I had never heard of tongues). Rather, it is a "revival" of sortsa revival of traditional, "old" Calvinism.The movement is sweeping through American evangelical churches of all denominations, attracting young people from Free Church, Episcopal, Independent, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches alike. If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. Can I ask you what your views are on RC Sproul and the Ligonier contingent? After all, you could be wrong. Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. 1. There are some big ones where I do not agree (for example, he is quite patriarchal, even though he doesnt make as big a deal about it as some of the more outspoken complementarians). Thats why. Packer James Montgomery Boice James White John F. MacArthur John Piper Joshua Harris Loraine Boettner Albert Mohler R.C. people who call themselves Calvinist have never really read Calvin. Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue :), I cannot express the relief and renewal- or perhaps, first real taste- of the joy of my salvation. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. A final troubling trend I believe plagues America's "Calvinist revival" is egotism. Its really beyond my comprehension, so I dont think about it too much. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? By 'not real' I mean that the meaning is destroyed in the overall thought of the clause or sentence. Oy. Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. Bring them to heaven? A Adam Clarke Adam Harwood Adrian Rogers A W Tozer B Balthasar Hubmaier Ben Witherington III Brian Abasciano C Charles Finney Charles Swindoll Chuck Smith Clark Pinnock C S Lewis Craig Evans Craig Keener D Daniel Steele Daniel Whedon Daniel Whitby Dave Hunt David Allen David Arthur DeSilva David Bentley Hart David Pawson Dwight L Moody E F I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! Nope. Were doing well so We must be Righteous is Prosperity Gospel crap. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. Lots of the Calvinists I have come across on the internet the past 13 15 years think you have to have advanced college degrees, spend ten years in school, be fluent in Hebrew and Koine Greek, have an exhaustive knowledge of the patristic writings, etc., to not only truly grasp Calvinism, but in their eyes, to be permitted to even begin to criticize it. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. G. Campbell Morgan 16. This has something that has really been important when writing, commenting, and moderating on ACFJ. At the Spiritual Sounding Board blog, in the threads about Calvinism, I saw Cals on occasion contradicting each other. If we cant really know the fundamentals, then, who are we to disagree with Calvinists on the secondaries? The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. Questions should be addressed to the male authority in ones life., 4) Christ died NOT for us, but to bring glory to the Father. Turn the other cheek when your salvation gets called into question. Itook to reading Calvin, Sproul, Edwards, Grudem, Piper, et al. B. Warfield said, "The Calvinist, in a word, is the man who sees God. A person who is happy (if that word lacks depth for anyone, you could substitute hopeful, optimistic, joyful, grateful) can affect others with it, 3 generations worth (ie- someone with happiness holds a door for someone carrying a heavy load, that person is then affected positively and they in turn affect someone else with their bolstered happiness). Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. Good point. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. Some of the formers non- above-board activities may be partly an outgrowth of his beliefs. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. 1) That article. R.C. This soteriological view is named after him because he is best remembered for his plethora of writings on this theological subject.